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Post by jesusfreak on Jun 13, 2009 9:23:13 GMT -6
And who is most closely identified with mega-churches, contemporary Christian music, mass-rally evangelism and best-selling, purpose-driven Christian books? That's right: Evangelicals. Sounds like a golden age for the evangelical church, right? Wrong, says Warren Cole Smith. www.charlotteobserver.com/faith/story/765051.html“For the sake of money and power and status and celebrity … we've made ‘church' easy. We've made being a card-carrying member of the evangelical movement easy. But being a disciple of Jesus in the early 21st century is hard and, for the most part, the evangelical church doesn't teach us how to do that.” “You see PowerPoint presentations, projection systems. You've got to spend an hour looking in the cubbies to find a cross or an altar,” he said. “We have, in the space of 20 years, almost completely discarded the historic symbols of Christianity.” I agree. So, does your church hide it? And what does it portray if it does? I know that our board Pastor doesnt. In fact he is one of the most outspoken clergy members in this state, if not five state region, and doesnt hide his Christianity, regardless of the fact that he has put his ministry on hold to care for his dying dad. So what do these things mean to the rest of you? The Cross. The Bible. The altar. Christ. ? Are we coming so passe' that we have discarded the meaning of Christianity as not to offend?
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hasset
Master Member
Posts: 633
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Post by hasset on Jun 13, 2009 10:45:36 GMT -6
I so agree with you and it is really sad. I know that pastor's need to make a living too but some of those who have those mega churches live in mansions and are covered in diamond rings. I saw photos of Benny Hinn's palace. Wow! I feel so sorry for all the little old ladies trying to exist on Social Security who sent him their last dime because they thought he had special connections to God that they didn't have.
I know Joel Osteen does not take a salary from his church. He has made his money on his books. He does give a good pep talk and that is good once in awhile------but not a substitute for church.
When you mentioned our Christian symbols, it reminded me of the Presbyterian church of my youth. It had the most wonderful wood carvings depicting Bible stories and they were across the front of the church. Years later, the church wanted to "update" the look of the church for the modern look and they threw all those carvings out. I thought that was terrible!!!!
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Post by mndapa1 on Jun 13, 2009 13:39:25 GMT -6
What is construde as shrewd interpretation of what God's will is or provides, I find it difficult to stomach what tele-evangelists have done.
Christianity is not about glitz or buildings, but service to God. I have to question, is God happy with churches, congregations, or faiths that are more about being appealing than speaking the truth.
As for me, the Cross is a prophecy fulfilled and a promise kept. Christ could have died on the Cross and it end there, but He rose from the dead, as a promise that all who are in Christ will rise from their death someday to be with Him. I am perplexed by the Catholic Church holding on to the crucifix. It didnt end there. The empty cross, the empty tomb...this is where the Miracle of Faith blooms. I dontworship a dead Savior, as He is risen and is alive and amongst us, and in our hearts.
The Bible...our instruction manual to learn and live God's will. Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.
And lastly...but FOREMOST...Christ. The Promised One, the Savior. Christ came to seek and to save. There is no other way to heaven, but through Jesus. No good works, no great lifestyle, nothing...not even sacraments or baptism. The only way to God is through His son. When we all come before Him at Judgement Day, Christ will either know you or not. Not by our actions or words...but by faith. It is so easy, but so hard for many people to understand. Being a Christian is not about what faith, demoniation, or church you attend..what you give or get..or how much you try to do good or not sin....it is about giving your life to Christ...being born of a new spirit, a new creation...BORN AGAIN...not of the flesh, but of the heart and soul.
Once a person gives their life to Christ...they become a part of the Church...not the Catholic Church...not any religion....but the elect who have put their total faith and trust in Christ alone. What about all the other stuff?
Well i agree you should fellowship with other Christians, follow all of God's commands (Being baptised..etc..), and leading a life as best you can with the help of the Holy Spirit...learning daily to grow with you walk with the Lord. But these are all a part of the walk of faith. The first step, is the only step that counts and the one that has eternal consequences...either accepting Christ as personal Savior or denying it.
Anyone can believe in Christ...the Devil believes in Jesus. He tempted Him three times. But accepting Him, serving Him, and Following Him...that the Devil can't do. And that is what worship is all about.
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hasset
Master Member
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Post by hasset on Jun 13, 2009 18:29:48 GMT -6
mndapa1, After reading some of your writings, I have to ask you if you go to a church. Do you really think Baptism is not necessary? If you don't go to a church, how do you serve God? I know there are little things a person can do to serve God but when you belong to a group, you have combined talents, finances, etc. to do service and education projects. I do agree with what you have written and I am wondering if you are independent of a formal group or are you with a certain church group. I guess what made me ask this is because of you writing this statement: "There is no other way to heaven, but through Jesus. No good works, no great lifestyle, nothing...not even sacraments or baptism. The only way to God is through His son."
I never heard anyone say this in any church I ever went to.
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Post by mndapa1 on Jun 13, 2009 21:24:09 GMT -6
Up until three months ago, I was a legal/ethics advisor for an Evangelical Organization and was a Pastor for Truckstop Ministries and founder of a transient outreach group. As for church, if yyou mean denomination, I was raised Lutheran, and found Jesus outside the dogma of the church and gave my life to Christ at the age of 12. After that I found religious indoctrination about as dangerous as educational indoctrination. So at the present time, I am not attending A church, but am a Born Again Christian, who was ordained many years ago. I finished my Masters Degree in Religion about a year ago, and am currently thinking about getting my Phd. So as to answer your questions. No where except for a few passages mentions being baptised and being saved in the same sentence. I am sure you are aware of the verse: Mark 16:16 "He Who Believes And Is Baptized Will Be Saved." "Look, Acts 2:38 says, 'Repent, and be baptized . . . .' How do you get around the fact that Peter said you've got to get baptized to be saved?" Luke 18 contains a helpful illustration. Verse 18 says, "And a certain ruler asked Him [Jesus], saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Now, that's a good question. Don't you think? Skipping down to verse 22, Jesus answered his question, and said, "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven . . . ." Is Jesus saying that salvation is an issue of economics? Is He saying that in order to be saved, a person has to hock everything and then give all the money to the poor? Of course not! Look again at verse 22. After telling this man to sell all that he had and to give the money to the poor, Jesus then said, ". . . and come, follow Me." In other words, Jesus was saying, "There's a barrier in your way, Mr. Ruler. You're never going to know salvation until you give up your one big hang-up - money." You see, Jesus read his heart and knew that this young ruler loved money. And the reason we know that Jesus' analysis was correct is because the guy turned around and went home. He wanted his money more than he wanted eternal life. The biggest stumbling block to Jewish conversion to following Christ was the fear of persecution. Jews by tradition, baptise their believers. So Peter says, "I know that's your problem. so that's what you're going to have to get out of the way." They had to be baptized as a public acknowledgment that they were naming the name of Jesus Christ - fully aware of what it was going to cost. So I have to ask...why would anyone want to cheapen or take away from Christ? He was the servant. He bore our sins on the Cross. He rose from the dead to break the bondage of sin. Are you saying Jesus Christ, the one and only Son of God, and what HE did is not sufficient? We have to add other things? Eternal life is ALL because of Christ. Nothing else. Like I said baptism is a command of God, but not the way to heaven. Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, and a lot of other denominations teaches baptism as a sacrament or command, but in the wrong order. Jesus Christ said, " I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father, but by me." No where did He mention AND baptism, or AND keep all the commandments, AND live a good life, there is no additions to His revelation or the key to Eternal life...GOD said HIMSELF, as Jesus..."I AM THE WAY." Most denominations confuse this. Misteach it, and are in effect putting their followers on dangerous ground. YOU CAN BE BAPTISED AND GO TO HELL, if you do not know Christ as your personal Savior. YOU CAN KEEP ALL THE 10 COMMANDMENTS AND STILL GO TO HELL, if you do not have Christ. Without Jesus, nothing else matters...you are going to HELL. For 2000 years, Satan has been deceiving the church that there is more...but there isn't. The more comes after you accept Christ. Living as a Christian and seeking the will of God is the hardpart. The easy part is acknowledging you are a sinner and that we deserve HELL. But Christ paid our debt in full. Nothing else can top that. And if we ask Jesus to come into our heart and trust that He is sufficient and turn from ourself and our wants and SERVE HIM and what GOD's WANTS...Jesus becomes our lawyer at Judgement. You will stand before Christ and your sins have been wiped away...and HE knows you because you know HIM. You can not be cast into the LAKE OF FIRE, because Christ paid your debt in FULL. You trusted Christ, and in return, Christ PARDONS you for the payment of sin, which is eternal death...not the death when you die as a human. It is very simple. A good read on this a Pastor I admired greatly when I was growing up. He has several books, but one was a collection of sermons, which I have and should be a must read for all Christians. It is: Salvation Crystal Clear by Curtis Hutson. Here is an excerpt from his website which is still up to this day: www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Curtis_Hutson/salvation_crystal_clear.htmYou will see, that we think and preach a lot alike. Because the plan is simple. Religion and Satan confuses it.
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Post by mndapa1 on Jun 13, 2009 21:56:10 GMT -6
As far as serving God...that is between you and HIM.
How many people do you know that actually seek HIS WILL? Even as a Pastor I struggle with this from time to time.
Sometimes as humans we think we know better than God. Obama certainly does. But truly seeking Him and HIS WILL is a never ending task. We find it by reading HIS word and praying with an open heart.
When God called me to be a Pastor, I had a successful business. My wife had two. We thought we had it all. A nice new home, two new vehicles, healthy family, a big bank account...and we found that we were serving ourselves and not God.
Serving God is not all about what you give. It is about what you do with God's talents, and what HE wants to do with your life. Otherwise the rich philathropists would have a huge edge on new Christians, poor Christians, etc....
It is never about money...it is about intent. Volunteering because God has shown you a need. Giving and trusting...because God tells you. If God whispered in your ear to write a check for $10, 000 and donate it to something...would you just do it...or say, "Well I have only $50 in my account, so there is no way I am going to do that?" But if God commands, He will provide. He has never done it with that large of number with me, but if HE did I would follow. It would be difficult. But faith preserves our action. Getting from this I think I cant attitude to GOD CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS, it is a big leap of Faith. But HIS word promises HE WILL...all we have to do is seek HIS WILL, and IF HE puts a mountain in the way, and it is HIS WILL that you will move it..all you have to do is have faith, trust HIM, and ask.
There are many things a person can do to serve God. Some of it is not Church stuff. Paying your taxes is being Obedient and this serves God, as our example "to give to Ceasar what is Ceasars."
There are three important things to remember about SERVICE. Remember the first, as the Lord's Prayer taught us "Thy WILL be done. On earth as it is in Heaven. " No matter how crazy things get or our lives get...GOD is in control We must yield to HIS will and control, and become instruments to HIS SERVICE and to glorify HIM.
Next, Our life becomes a tool. Everything we have is God's. Use it for service to HIM. Think of it this way...all humans are an instrument of untuned nature. When you accept Christ, HE tunes us, so we are not like the REST of the WORLD. Our lives should show that we are different...not better...but different. It is because the Spirit of Christ resides in our heart. This does not mean we stop sinning, but we make an effort to stop sinning the best we know how, and with Christ help, we overcome. I get a kick out of people that think if you accept Christ, you can not drink any more. This is nonsense...but if you are a public drunkard...it is probably a good idea. But where are the sinners? In them ther bars. Think Christ if He were here today would be looking for sinners to save in all the local churches? Our witness is our legacy. It shows sinners that Christ can change. I am a sinner. Everyone is. The difference between them and me...I have Jesus. I have accepted HIS payment for my sins and asked Him to forgive me. This is what repentance is. So the second thing, is to live with Christ and ask Him to forgive you...everyday if need be. The one thing a lot of people forget to do is be thankful. Thank God for the house over your head. Thank Him for the food He provides. Thank HIM for all your blessings. Give God the glory.
And lastly, remember. God does not give us any more than we can handle. Setbacks, challenges, and roadblocks in life build faith, character, and a bond with the Lord. Sometimes we want to go one way...and the Lord will send us a thousand miles in the opposite direction. A walk as a Christian is all about being obedient, thankful, prayerful, and praising, to a God who has showed us mercy, love, and grace.
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hasset
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Post by hasset on Jun 14, 2009 10:37:05 GMT -6
The web site you suggested sounds very practical and makes sense but it sounds like you have to have a good command of Bible knowledge. I wouldn't want to play Bible Trivia with you!!!
I think my problem is that I was always taught to go to church but there wasn't any teaching in my home. My mother always made me go to church and Sunday school and even when I was away at college, she would call me on Sunday morning to tell me to get out of bed and to go to church. I resented it but felt guilt if I did not go.
It sounds like to be as secure as you are, a person needs to know the Bible and know it well. I have heard the scriptures enough to have basic concepts but I sure don't have it all sorted out like you have.
When I was 8 yrs. old, my church gave Bibles to the kids who had done their memory work. I was the only one who didn't get one and I was shamed for it. My mother used to make me go to my bedroom on Sunday afternoon to memorize the verses but I never was one to memorize anything.
I have you pegged as intelligent and liking to read and remember details. What do you say to someone who is sort of from the relaxed point of view? My husband is very secure in his view but I still have hang ups from my early teaching.
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Post by valvalentino on Jun 14, 2009 13:41:39 GMT -6
hasset, that is an excellent post with excellent questions. This might prove to be informative to all once mndapa1 returns and has time to respond.
You have been a nice addition to this blog!
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Post by mndapa1 on Jun 15, 2009 1:29:45 GMT -6
I will try to make this as simple as possible.
I dont think you need a good knowledge of the Bible to follow Christ. But when you ask Jesus to come into your life...you get a new hunger. And the thing that satisfies that hunger is the Word...the Bible.
When people are forced to play church or go through the motions, they become resentful and miss out on the real message and the GOSPEL. It is something that is hard to over come, but the first is forgiveness. Learning to forgive others can take the road block out of the way. And Christ will remove it from your life, and a new experience begins.
"It sounds like to be as secure as you are, a person needs to know the Bible and know it well. I have heard the scriptures enough to have basic concepts but I sure don't have it all sorted out like you have."
Yes I know the Bible pretty well, but Satan has it all memorized. So the best thing, is not to compare, but assure yourself. I am certain a great man like Billy Grahamn has had many stumbling blocks in his journey as a Christian...like all do. I do. But the essence of it all, is that Salvation is the easy part....and living as a Christian after accepting Christ is the hard part. It gets easier as you learn to converse with GOD through prayer and learning to listen to HIS will and reading the Bible because we want to and not have to. Christ can and will help us. I learned a good experiment while I was in seminary. Take your bible and place it in front of you. Ask God to teach you something new today that He wants you to know. Close your eyes, and let God help you open HIS WORD. Read both pages. Think about what you read all day, and you will be surprised that GOD will reveal HIMSELF and you gain more understanding. Sometimes it is something small...something that can change your life completely. Remember, HE is the potter...you are the clay. He will mold your life day after day, if you are willing. Sometimes it is hard to read the Bibble everyday...and it is NOT REQUIRED. NEITHER IS CHURCH ATTENDANCE. NEITHER IS GIVING MORE THAN YOU CAN AFFORD.
But these are things that happen when you learn to respond to the commands of GOD. 17% of Christians tithe. That means 83% of Christians do not give 10% of their income to GOD. But God understands...it is difficult. Now if it is just because you dont want to instead if can't...that is a different topic for a different day.
So what about church attendance. God has commanded us to celebrate, worship, and experience faith with other Christians. But you are doing it right here, right now. This command said nothing about a building...nothing about Sunday school...nothing about singing hymns...it is learning to grow with each others hel and give ALL the glory to GOD. Praise Jesus!!! Praise Jesus that we live in America and I can tell you all this without worrying about someone knocking down my door and killing you or me because of our faith...in other parts of the world...they are not that lucky.
"What do you say to someone who is sort of from the relaxed point of view? My husband is very secure in his view but I still have hang ups from my early teaching."
Your faith is your faith. Like I said, forgive and move on and the blessings will come. Relaxed, secure, apparent, vibrant...all adjectives. The noun is the important part. FAITH. Some think is is an action. Others a way of life. Again others, a belief. Everyone is different. But the important thing is the Jesus. That HE is the only thing we depend on for our Salvation. Like many instruments, we all have a different tune, melody, and sound...but when we come together..we are an orchestra...the Church. We all learn to play our instrument after Christ brings us in tune. Then the more practice...the better we get...as Christians.
It is not about memorizing scripture, our singing in the Choir, or the host of other things deemed as being a good Christian...it is your relationship with God and HIS SON, Jesus Christ. I can not say what it should or should not be...that is up to each individual. If you know Christ as your personal Savior...God does the rest...WE ARE ALWAYS A WORK IN PROGRESS!!!!
Yes, He is still working on me...and you...and everybody who is Trusting JESUS!!! Praise Jesus and AMEN!!!
And yes we all have doubts and insecurities....but we can be confident, that we are in Christ's safe haven...in HIS mercy. It is HIS promise and GOD ALWAYS KEEPS HIS PROMISES!!!!
We all learn to live in Jesus. In the Shadow of His Cross...I present to the you...the only thing that matters:
I still can't watch this video without crying...but I put it up here. This is what makes Christianity not a religion, but a way to live, a way of life.
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Post by knollwood on Jun 15, 2009 11:16:12 GMT -6
Excellent post mndapa. I agree with you 100%.
The only thing I would add to it is that I think it is important to belong to a local church and have fellowship with other believers. I know you can still do this anywhere, but I think the importance of the local church is taught in the Bible.
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hasset
Master Member
Posts: 633
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Post by hasset on Jun 16, 2009 7:48:47 GMT -6
In a way I agree with Knowlwood ----but------ The people who have treated me the best and I have more in common with have always come from other places, not church. My husband and I aren't joiners. We like our independence and freedoms. If I could find a simple church, I would be o.k. with going. My husband can go to a church and then not get involved in anything else and it doesn't bother him. I always end up doing what I am told to do and resenting it. Therefore, I keep my distance.
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Post by knollwood on Jun 16, 2009 8:34:49 GMT -6
I understand what you are saying hasset. Growing up as a preacher's kid I can relate to the problems sometimes faced in the local church. Just remember - unfortunately people will let us down, but keep your eyes on God. He will never fail us!
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hasset
Master Member
Posts: 633
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Post by hasset on Jun 16, 2009 8:48:53 GMT -6
This is sort of changing the subject but sort of not.
The last church I attended was made up of Democrats. What the church stood for on paper agreed with me but I guess people all do their own interpretations of what you make of it.
I can not see how any one saying he is Christian could justify abortion. I can not see how anyone could say Bill Clinton's lack of morals didn't matter. I have always been polite to Democrats but it isn't a two way street. My husband was treated with hostility if he spoke his opinion. He wouldn't go to church anymore so we left. No one ever contacted us to see what happened to us so I guess we didn't really belong there anyway.
There are so many things about the Democrats that seem to go against how I interpret the Bible.
Do any of you see how a Christian could really be a Democrat (and I mean today's Democrat)?
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Post by mndapa1 on Jun 16, 2009 10:26:06 GMT -6
A lot of it, is how people view things. I have had the same problem. And I am always, not just sometimes controversial. I wear my Christianity on my sleeves. And dealing with hypocrites can be very hard...on not just on our life, but with our walk with GOD.
I agree with you Knollwood, that attending church is taught in the Bible. But it is not required for salvation. It is required to grow in faith. Like minded people help each other. But what about when they disagree? The ultimate source for how a church should be set up, structured, and worship God IS in the Bible, but a lot, if not most, do not follow it. They add to it or subtract to it at THEIR will...not GOD's will.
I have attended many of the churches in this area. Just to see. I wont give the results of what I found, but just say it is disappointing. In some, I felt like the message that they were all saved and didnt need to talk about sin. I am saved...and I am still a sinner. Clergy in this area and all over are not talking about the reality of it, and how it is choking the church. And they stay away from all the firecracker issues...homosexuality, purity, abortion, taxes, etc...anything that may make people uncomfortable. And i dont get it. As Christians, we are to be on GOD's side of the issues...not our political parties side. I wont support a GOP or any candidate that is a homosexual, supports Abortion, doesnt support Israel, or a whole list of issues that doesnt ascribe to GOD's will for HIS people. Some teach that Christians shouldn't be involved in politics...but I disagree. As the late Dr. James Kennedy said, "It is a Christians duty to stand up for GOD. Stand up for GOD's principles. And Stand up for your family."
Some people feel should set aside your beliefs in politics. But as a Christian, is this possible? As I firmly believe being a Christian is a way of life...not just something you do in your home, or church, or in a circle of friends.
So how do we find a church to call home? Put your trust in Jesus and let HIM lead you there. I will admit, there are probably some parts of the country that dont have a local church that will accomodate. But leave that to Jesus, because sometimes WE are what a church needs and not the other way around.
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Post by mndapa1 on Jun 16, 2009 10:38:10 GMT -6
Here is a good simple and basic article that I agree with most of it. christianity.about.com/od/churchandcommunity/ht/chooseachurch.htmAbove all of their recommendations, at the top of the list.....PUT......PRAY AND SEEK THE WILL OF GOD. And then I think the rest, becomes more clear and easier. And then this note at the bottom of their article...is VERY IMPORTANT!!!! Remember, there is no perfect church. Visit a church at least 3 times before making a decision either way. Don’t try to change a church. Most of them are set in their mission. There are so many different ones out there to choose from, it’s best to just find one that's a good “fit” for you. Don't give up. Keeping searching until you find the right church. Being in a good church is too important to neglect. The last one is debatable. Only God knows that for certain. But it is an undaunting task and not right for most to task the task of reforming a church. Remember, a church is a building and a place of worship. If you have accepted Christ, you are already part of THE CHURCH. After reading the first article...READ this one: www.wikihow.com/Find-a-New-Church
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